I remember reading Lowell Thomas's book Out of This World to Forbidden Tibet which came out in 1954. Even in the 1960s when I read it as a teenager, it was clear that the subtext was the Cold War. It wasn't about Tibet, it was about China and the US. The Dalai Lama was cast as a sympathetic figure because of his opposition to a common enemy. Tibet was a feudal theocracy back then, and even I, as a high school student, knew enough about feudalism and traditional agriculture to know that the book glossed over the realities.
Last year I was in Bhutan, and while I admired the traditional agriculture, the temples and so on, I was pleased to see electrical power lines running to out of the way farm hamlets and people threshing rice with a lawn mower like gas powered gizmo. On my way there, the airport line in Bangkok was full of Bhutanese stocking up on small electric appliances. Bhutan is a client state of India and has fewer pretensions than Tibet which may work in its favor.
Tibet and Bhutan are neighbors in the Himalayas. Both are Buddhist states and have long traded with each other. I was comparing and contrasting their contact with modernity. Tibet was always much richer and had its own periods of conquest and glory. Bhutan was always a backwater in comparison. As this article notes, Tibet was conquered by the Chinese, not for the first time, and forced to end its medieval system. Bhutan, in contrast, was never as oppressive if only because it was rarely wealthy enough to support much of an aristocracy.
India has taken Bhutan on as a client state, and Bhutan has been ruled by a series of progressive monarchs who have been moving towards broadly based prosperity and a parliamentary monarchy. India has let Bhutan remain independent. The closest to a threat of invasion involved a group of Indian separatist guerillas who had taken refuge in southern Bhutan. India demanded that Bhutan eliminate or expel them. Bhutan did, but being good Buddhists and abhorring violence, they distributed the weapons they used, AK-47s, to the various monasteries as reminders to try to avoid warfare. (When I noticed an AK-47 in one of the temples, I had to ask.)
There are other mountain kingdoms in the Himalayas, and they have been joining the global community as our world shrinks. Ladahk, for example, is now part of India. Nepal is independent and had a major royal massacre back in 2001. There has been talk, on and off, of India annexing them. There are probably other countries up in the mountain valleys that I am little aware of.
Prosperous than the Bhutan and Nepal before China’s invasion. So I think, If Tibet remained independent state then then it is more still comparatively more prosperous than these neighboring countries.
I don't know what you're smoking but, Tibet was pretty darn poor before the liberation minus the wealthy elites. A lot of their military was dependent on the central military stationed in there.
Nepal on the other hand, was pretty wealthy and had a very strong military. Which was why nearing the late 19th century, their relationship with China to soured. Because they were wealthy and strong enough to contest powers with Qing dynasty trying to expand their borders. This caused China to ignore their request for military assistance when the Brits invaded, now of course at that time China had its own woes, but they were not as severe at that time.
Even to this day Nepalese warriors are known for their strong fighting capability, especially when it comes to mercenary recruitments. Nepalese are great fighters. They have high recruitment rates.
Tibet richer???? Nope, it was stuck on the high roof with very little trade with anyone. The poor couldnt afford greens because v hard to grow there and these go to the elites and the monks. Nepal was a big kingdom, with good access to India and was cut down in size by the British. Nepal stood well against the other Indian states for a long time.
Do you realize Bhutan has been ethnically cleansing its country of all of the Bhutanese who are of Nepali ancestry but have lived there for many generations?
You mention the 2001 Nepali royal massacre here, for what reason, it was committed by the mentally ill crown prince who killed his entire family after a argument with a family member - what has that got to do with this article?
The same "violence abhorring Buddhists" expelled more than 100,000 ethnic Nepalis from their land. There only fault was that they demanded their right to practice their culture and language and democratic reform.
I hope that one day this tragedy gets the attention it deserves.
Related and supporting the information here: See Michael Parenti's website article "Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth" (2007) http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
Many Tibetologists are unable or unwilling to address issues of power and governance in traditional Tibetan society and culture, almost as though Tibetan Buddhism, as popularized by the Dalai Lama, obviates such analysis.
Tibetan Buddhism is a unique species of buddhism. It is very different than any other kind of buddhism and it is easy for westerners to get confused by the sweet talk. Here is a very good book about how it is different than other types of Buddhism. People recognize that there are many kinds of hinduism, islam and even christianity. But,they can't understand the same about Buddhism. https://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Not-Smiling-Uncovering-Corruption/dp/0977225305
Tibetan Buddhist is too deep and complex to normal like us to understand. So many times western writers, scholars and philosophers have misinterpreted. Because they don’t understand the real and full contexts. Tibetan Buddhism has thousands of volumes of scrips.
First of all every religion promotes peace and there I always an effort to bring positivity in our life. secondly, people have their own mind to decide. They are interested in Tibetan Buddhism not merely of sweet talks, it because Tibetan Buddhism relates with everyday of your life. It promotes peace, humanity, happiness. And if you think people alike you are confused with the sweet talk, I would suggest you to go and study deeper and find an answer than just remaining confused as you are now. PS. Tibetan Buddhism is deeper than you would imagine, a book cannot portray you the real meaning. It takes an effort and time to study and know Tibetan Buddhism.
LMAO. If it truly is what you describe it to be, why were there so many serfs so cruelly punished for such petty 'offences' and treated worse than livestock that were all sanctioned by the monasteries? Do you actually know anything about actual traditional Tibetan Buddhism. Not the stuff that Dalai Lama has watered down so that it is more appealing to the morals of people today. But if you actually dig through the historical records and paintings, especially when it comes to certain ceremonies and rituals. It is pretty darn brutal and bloody.
And they do devil worshipping. Like literally, because according to some sects of Tibetan Buddhist beliefs, devils that have been brought in by the powers of Buddha can be a powerful tool. But their inherent blood-lusting nature cannot be tamed, so when you use them, the sacrifices are more... intense. Things like human organs, human blood, human fetuses/blood of certain heritages.
Let's not forget the human bone Buddhist artifacts and human skin drums that were super common before they were banned.
I read it was blended in with the Bon folk religion. Just look at their festivities, devils, ghouls, and you can tell. Pretty medieval. Also fatalism which comes with casteism which allows the theocracy to rule the masses. If they dont obey, they or their loved ones dont get reincarnated, etc.
Thank you for the article, Miss Esha. I was just speaking with my father about Tibet and wondering why the West is very insistent on pushing independence for Tibet. I found it nonsensical as me and my family visited the place a few years ago, with the tour guide (a local Tibetan man) telling us how things are better and much accessible than it was. Your article certainly made sense to certain things. I even went to Weibo to check on things, and found this article about the percentage of serf and very clear pictures of them as well. I thought you might be interested in it.
First link basically explains that only less than 5% were serf owners while 95% were serfs for generations. Second link shows contrasts of 1950s vs current Tibet.
You might see many resistance against your piece, accusing you of spreading Chinese propaganda and yelling over any explanation you try to give. But know that there are people whose eyes you have opened, whose perspective you broadened today with this article.
Thank you for spreading the truth, or at the very least a less biased, rose tinted version of history.
Now is 21st century, not countries in the world remained out of electricity and mobile phones. Tibetans also deserves to have better living standards under China’s role. Just take a look back to 19th and 20th century and ask your dad about how the life style or living condition in your land/country. then you will have another picture. This article is all about how tibetan serfs suffered under the Feudal system.
Same systems were practiced even in the western countries during 1900s and 1920s. There was a time in the history, the every men and women have undergone in the same situation and same hardship that has highlighted in this article.
During the industrial revolution in Europe, do you know labors labors conditions and from where and how did these labors taken from? So you have to look at a larger picture and compare with other countries during and around same period.
You said that you went to Tibet recently. Have you given access to go and visit wherever you want go freely and openly? have you given right and chance to talk with very layman and common people about their situation? Have you given right travel freely without a travel agent and a tour guy? Would China allow you to visite the sites freely without a tour gay with you!! Think about these and then speak.
I thought it was Ok to make assumptions? And i'm going to assume your an oversees Chinese person. You've been doing it the entire time. Ok I'll shut up, Chinese propaganda bot!
Read and enjoy! But don’t be a fool to believe everything that’s written here.
A few pages of article cannot narrate the whole history of a country (Tibet). It is one-sided story and 100% untrue.
If Tibetans are so happy and prosperous under Chinese’s rule then why my parents left Tibet, our own beautiful land, and take refuge in India?
If Tibetans are living so well-off under CCP even in today, then why my brothers and sisters in Tibet are self-immolating and praying His Holiness the 14 Dalai Lama to return to Tibet as one of their last wishes:
There are many many questions I have which you cannot answer because you are restricting your research focusing on few topics and highlighting few lines in some books. It pained my heart reading your article, seeing you painted our long glories history and rich culture in just limited colours and presented to readers to enjoy and share it at large.
Well, 120k are in India. Lots of Chinese fled the wars, famines and also communism in China. I guess your ancestors have their reasons. Perhaps they are the high monks or the landlords or the elites with more to lose.
Immolations?
ask the DL. He never want to stop it, did he??? Maybe he likes the bright photos.
He said he shouldnt interfere, and let them burn.
fact is the stats are useful politically.
btw, India has more than a thousand immolations a YEAR. why?
> The practice continues, notably in India: as many as 1,451 and 1,584 self-immolations were reported there in 2000 and 2001, respectively.
So China bans immolations and punish those who abet. Yes, abet. Abetters are the real criminals, which may include the assholes close to the DL.
Guess what?? It works. it stops.
It's like AQ asking people to be suicide bombers with promise of 14 virgins. They are brainwashed and seduced to do it.
For what???? for politics, for the Dalai Lama. He asked for it.
Read and enjoy! But don’t be a fool to believe everything that’s written here.
A few pages of article cannot narrate the whole history of a country (Tibet). It is one-sided story and 100% untrue.
If Tibetans are so happy and prosperous under Chinese’s rule then why my parents left Tibet, our own beautiful land, and take refuge in India?
If Tibetans are living so well-off under CCP even in today, then why my brothers and sisters in Tibet are self-immolating and praying His Holiness the 14 Dalai Lama to return to Tibet as one of their last wishes:
There are many many questions I have which you cannot answer because you are restricting your research focusing on few topics and highlighting few lines in some books. It pained my heart reading your article, seeing you painted our long glories history and rich culture in just limited colours and presented to readers to enjoy and share it at large.
Well, many Muslims blow themselves up for a political or religious cause t00. They are used or brainwashed or conditioned or feel so strongly about it. sad but i cannot explain. there are always a few like that in all societies.
D lama could stop it. BUT he refused. Maybe he knows he cannot? maybe he thinks it is good PR? I dont know. But it's shit that many exploit the immolations for politics.
becoz, the original religion r much more cruel, it was used to harness, when master is gone, they feel no meanings of living, modern religions involves and become more benign to make it coexist with mundane society.
This entire article and it’s references are strongly biased and one-sided. If you have no self respect, human values and ethics within yourself as well as to others then you can create false stores with every old pictures and clips you got. I know the Man in the video who praises China’s occupation of Tibet, because this is solely for his occupation. Standing for China is his Bread & Butter. You know what I saying? If one is rightful and give himself or herself freedom to explore and decide then, he or she will surely spit to China’s illegal occupation of Tibet.
Not true. The DL knows the sentiments in Tibet. He knows the majority have benefited from CHina, and therefore the % asking for independence is low. HE had said sometime in 2014 / 2017 that Tibet no longer wants independence but only more development, and their culture to be respected. Hey, all festivities still on, Tibetan taught in school, 1700 temples and China didnt ban SKY BURIALs. I guess good enough.
Tibet is quite rich today relative to all surrounding countries. for sure they are far better off than their cousins in exile.
Goldstein writes in his second volume of A History of Modern Tibet “No one in Washington or at the CIA headquarters in Langley knew much of anything about Tibet, Ganzi/Kham, or JKTS” (pg 393).
It is called corroboration. If a Chinese source and the CIA say the same thing, it is highly likely that piece of information is true. Especially since the CIA is anti-china. There is no reason for the CIA to lie to make China look better, especially from the documents from the 1950s.
I made sure that all the information was corroborated in two ways.
I didn't say incompetent. All I asked was how much did they know? Was Tibet on their radar at the time? I think you underestimate how closed Tibet was.... I would love to see information on the CIA being able to spy on all the world leaders of the time.
That China is invading Tibet? Everything from CIA is wrong when it proved China has the right to handle Tibet? That you immediately decided the information is wrong because it's from a Chinese site instead?
So China did not have to send its military into Tibet?
I never said the information is wrong, did I? I said what did they know about TIbet. It's also funny that you discredit western sources, except for the CIA... The CIA never even said that China has a right to "handle" Tibet, so now you making more things up (Like the typical Chinese government).
So it's okay for the "benevolent" ruling monks to have slaves, store weapons in their palatial temples, collude with foreign forces to break an agreement with Chinese government and kill their soldiers and peasants because their slaves were slowly getting smarter and richer? If Ireland were to do the same, would UK just let the leaders of the rebels flee? I believe you are the one drowned in western propaganda instead
I think this man will never accept anything positive said about China, or the legitimate explanation China had in doing what they did. He even missed the part about the USA weaponising the rebel monks in your article
I don't agree with this Phil Lim guy but he had a point. You need to cite as many sources as possible especially when writing on contentious issues like this.
They are an intelligence body from the USA. They generally need to know everything that is going on or their country would be spied and state secret be leaked, y'know
funny, now you are saying CIA cannot be trusted and stupid. They were in Tibet, planned the DL escape, armed insurgents, paid the DL and his entourage to play anti-China, paid lots to write naughty things, funded the Free Tibet orgs & NGOS, etc, etc, and they dont know???
No one said it was alright to have slaves. What were neighboring countries like at the time? What percent of Tibetans were slaves? The Chinese were the invaders...the monks have a right to defend their country against the foreign invaders.
Oh, and to answer your question: Only 5% of the Tibetan population were serf owners so 95% of Tibet population were serfs aka slaves. Congrats! You are defending the Freedom of elites to shackle and objectify human beings, but it's okay if it's against those dastardly communist China! The poor slave labors can be free to be worked to death and amputated, woohoo!
So you're saying it's okay to amputate and work the common population to death in perpetual poverty for generations because the elite monks said it's their Buddha given right? That's not the definition of slaves? You do notice the shackles on their necks and feet, right?
Yes, they can. If they get into serious debts, they go into bondage. The powerful in Tibet certainly exploit the gullible fatalistic society.
After liberation, a notable event was the burning of bondage papers in big bonfires. Whatever, the old system in Tibet was bad, as was the case in many backwards places.
Geopolitically, is a diff matter and already a closed chapter. Legally China claimed back a breakaway Tibet by force. To some it's an invasion of a sovereign nation (but Tibet was FAR from sovereign). The UN and all the powers have already accepted Tibet belongs to China long ago. However US or India bitch for their own selfish reasons, there is still the reality that no one can take away Tibet.
The ruling class of Tibet was literally colluding with British and Americans to attack PLA. Which sane country would let a region, especially an autonomous region bordering with at least three different countries, freely stockpiling arms from those who had intentions of conquest be?
Are you seriously saying China had no right to defend itself from an obvious foreign intervention and civil war because some rich monks decided their peasants were living too well? Would you tell UK to please liberate Ireland and Scotland if China were to airdrop guns and bombs for them to attack British soldiers? Petition USA to set Hawaii free were Russia to arm Hawaiians with missiles? Why not ask Japan to let Okinawa go if Iraq were to provide the weapons?
"The ruling class of Tibet was literally colluding with British and Americans to attack PLA."
When? And what are you talking about? Are you talking about after China invaded?
"Which sane country would let a region, especially an autonomous region bordering with at least three different countries, freely stockpiling arms from those who had intentions of conquest be?"
So it's justified to invade a country to protect itself from three other countries? When did Tibet want to conquer China?
"Are you seriously saying China had no right to defend itself from an obvious foreign intervention and civil war because some rich monks decided their peasants were living too well?"
The only foreign intervention in Tibet was China.... China wasn't defending anything, it was the aggressor. After China invaded an independent country, the U.S. did supply Tibetans with arms/training (It was just to collect intelligence and had no serious plans of liberating Tibet), as the Tibetans were fighting against an inavader... There is no sympathy for foreign invaders.
I also love how you didn't answer any of my questions ;)
I don't think you have read the article at all. Did the part where USA airdropped weaponry for the monks got lost from your sight or you are just deliberately being illiterate? At this point it is useless to explain and provide anything to you because everything that doesn't line with your reality is propaganda. I think you yourself know what is the truth, but since it destroys the beautiful West is Best narrative it is unacceptable
You can't even spell invader right because China was not invading their own country. British and USA were when they decided it was okay to arm those rich monks
In case you miss it, only 5% of the Tibetan population were serf owners. 95% of the population were serfs. The poor, poor monks without Freedom to have slave labor and amputating whoever they want. CCP didn't even ask them to stop having serfs but sure they were invading
On this day, The Tibetan serfs emancipated! Serf owners could set up private jails, the serfs were called "burdensome talking beast". Before 1959, Tibet had long been a society of feudal serfdom under theocracy, with less than 5% of the population being serf owners occupying all available pastures and more than 95% of population were serfs for generations. Today (3/28) in 1959, the central government announced the dissolution of local Tibetan government, serfs become masters of their own and Tibet!
Maybe you should write more clearly. Did you not read when I wrote about the U.S. helping the Tibetan fighters?
You're absolutely right, I spelt invader wrong so therfore I am not correct in any way. It was perfectly fine to supply Tibetans with training and arms. In fact they should have provided more as China was the invader.
HAHAHAHA! Using weibo as a source. You are a joke and I can't take you seriously.
Which genocide? The ones Chinese government provided with free housing, electricity, jobs, and free education? You think Tibetans are some backwards society asking for the White Heroes to please save them from prosperity and higher living standard? The Tibetans have enough money to live comfortably and access Internet. I just literally saw Tibetans posting happy pictures on Weibo, but I bet you will say those are doctored because in your mind Tibetans are poor, uncivilized people asking to be liberated.
Its now 21st century, do you think that Tibetan can’t access to electricity, internet with China? And do you think Tibetan are still having 19th century’s life style? Tibetans are same people as Chinese, as westerners who can have ability and capability to build own necessary infrastructure without China. Who do you think China is? Tibetan are living in their own land. China didn’t bring all of sudden these long rivers, high mountains and deep forest and wildlife’s in Tibet to make Tibet more greater. Out of China, Tibet already lived thousands of year happily just like how these western countries lived. And Tibet has everything to live as Prosperous as all other counties.
What a non sense!! I know that Smiling faces are another beauties of Tibetans. So how silly you are to get surprised with how Tibetan are smiling in their social media posts. What else funny complains you want to make over Tibetan rather other than on smiling faces?
Nope, pop was 1 million, now it's more than 2 million Tibetans and close to 4 m all over CHina.
Tibet is open for tourism. Go see. It's pretty nice. Tibetans have big houses, lands, bikes, SUVs. Development is amazing, univ , hospitals, schools, tourism, agriculture. People who have visited have blogged their experience.
I have read, can't remember where, that Tibet was an expansionist warrior state during an early warming period (Roman?). In particular, Tibetan warriors accoutered much like armored cavalry, ranged far afield to rule over an area much larger than the mountains which comprise Tibet today.
As always, history is written by the victors for their own benefit.
Old Tibet was quite militaristic and fought numerous wars. In some maps, you would find they control quite a huge territory and at times even threaten the Chinese states in the far west.
That was the 7th~9th centuries, during which they even sacked the then Tang capital of Xi'an. Interestingly enough no ethnic Han people are blaming them but rather direct they hatred towards prince Suzong, who promised the Tibetans to do so as long as they helped quelling the rebels.
She reads some newspaper ad magazines and starts to describe the history of Tibet it this kind of a joke millions of people were killed by Chinese it is crystal clear in the history and if you want more proof in the modern world then what about the uighurs concentration camps why people of Uighur cannot have their basic fundamental rights why are CCP interfering someone else rights why are they always down to harm others there is a saying in Tibet « If you cannot help others atleast don’t harm them » and it is as simple as that I will be happy and proud if I could change ones perspective before girl like you starts to destroy
U idiot think before you write baseless accusations maybe none of your family is under CCP or else you would know what does suffer means people like you are sold bloody damn disgrace in the name of humanity Chinese have ruined millions life’s of people and you are one of them
You have talked a lot about the serfs and corvee labors as if it only happened in Tibet and have never happened to any part of the world. If we take a look back to most recent last two centuries, serfs were even more common to the entire western world. Even today you can see how China is forcing Xing-Jiang Muslims and Tibetans to the labor camps. Why CCP China is not giving free access to these news medias to cover the news and informations about these forceful labor camps. What you can say about this? Aren’t you taking aback in seeing these thing in 21st century? You still want to mute and fool yourself as if you you never knew or heard of it.
How can you justify that Tibet was not an independent country before 1959? Is this particular article a worthwhile enough to publish to show how Tibet was a part of China?
This whole " perspective" issue reminds me of an excerpt from "Contrary Notions" https://gyazo.com/d5202adf016970ec256e708cd34deafc
Standing ovation
some people really need to review their own habit of calling anything they don't like as comnunist propaganda
actually i believe in liberation, so am a self made communist
Very interesting reading. It adds another view point to how we have glamorized the Dalai Lama and other Religious figures from around the planet.
I remember reading Lowell Thomas's book Out of This World to Forbidden Tibet which came out in 1954. Even in the 1960s when I read it as a teenager, it was clear that the subtext was the Cold War. It wasn't about Tibet, it was about China and the US. The Dalai Lama was cast as a sympathetic figure because of his opposition to a common enemy. Tibet was a feudal theocracy back then, and even I, as a high school student, knew enough about feudalism and traditional agriculture to know that the book glossed over the realities.
Last year I was in Bhutan, and while I admired the traditional agriculture, the temples and so on, I was pleased to see electrical power lines running to out of the way farm hamlets and people threshing rice with a lawn mower like gas powered gizmo. On my way there, the airport line in Bangkok was full of Bhutanese stocking up on small electric appliances. Bhutan is a client state of India and has fewer pretensions than Tibet which may work in its favor.
What is going on with Bhutan? I I don't think I understand
Tibet and Bhutan are neighbors in the Himalayas. Both are Buddhist states and have long traded with each other. I was comparing and contrasting their contact with modernity. Tibet was always much richer and had its own periods of conquest and glory. Bhutan was always a backwater in comparison. As this article notes, Tibet was conquered by the Chinese, not for the first time, and forced to end its medieval system. Bhutan, in contrast, was never as oppressive if only because it was rarely wealthy enough to support much of an aristocracy.
India has taken Bhutan on as a client state, and Bhutan has been ruled by a series of progressive monarchs who have been moving towards broadly based prosperity and a parliamentary monarchy. India has let Bhutan remain independent. The closest to a threat of invasion involved a group of Indian separatist guerillas who had taken refuge in southern Bhutan. India demanded that Bhutan eliminate or expel them. Bhutan did, but being good Buddhists and abhorring violence, they distributed the weapons they used, AK-47s, to the various monasteries as reminders to try to avoid warfare. (When I noticed an AK-47 in one of the temples, I had to ask.)
There are other mountain kingdoms in the Himalayas, and they have been joining the global community as our world shrinks. Ladahk, for example, is now part of India. Nepal is independent and had a major royal massacre back in 2001. There has been talk, on and off, of India annexing them. There are probably other countries up in the mountain valleys that I am little aware of.
Well said. Tibet was more
Prosperous than the Bhutan and Nepal before China’s invasion. So I think, If Tibet remained independent state then then it is more still comparatively more prosperous than these neighboring countries.
I don't know what you're smoking but, Tibet was pretty darn poor before the liberation minus the wealthy elites. A lot of their military was dependent on the central military stationed in there.
Nepal on the other hand, was pretty wealthy and had a very strong military. Which was why nearing the late 19th century, their relationship with China to soured. Because they were wealthy and strong enough to contest powers with Qing dynasty trying to expand their borders. This caused China to ignore their request for military assistance when the Brits invaded, now of course at that time China had its own woes, but they were not as severe at that time.
Even to this day Nepalese warriors are known for their strong fighting capability, especially when it comes to mercenary recruitments. Nepalese are great fighters. They have high recruitment rates.
Tibet richer???? Nope, it was stuck on the high roof with very little trade with anyone. The poor couldnt afford greens because v hard to grow there and these go to the elites and the monks. Nepal was a big kingdom, with good access to India and was cut down in size by the British. Nepal stood well against the other Indian states for a long time.
Do you realize Bhutan has been ethnically cleansing its country of all of the Bhutanese who are of Nepali ancestry but have lived there for many generations?
You mention the 2001 Nepali royal massacre here, for what reason, it was committed by the mentally ill crown prince who killed his entire family after a argument with a family member - what has that got to do with this article?
The same "violence abhorring Buddhists" expelled more than 100,000 ethnic Nepalis from their land. There only fault was that they demanded their right to practice their culture and language and democratic reform.
I hope that one day this tragedy gets the attention it deserves.
Related and supporting the information here: See Michael Parenti's website article "Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth" (2007) http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
Thanks!
https://espressostalinist.com/2011/04/20/michael-parenti-on-chinese-capitalism/
Many Tibetologists are unable or unwilling to address issues of power and governance in traditional Tibetan society and culture, almost as though Tibetan Buddhism, as popularized by the Dalai Lama, obviates such analysis.
Tibetan Buddhism is a unique species of buddhism. It is very different than any other kind of buddhism and it is easy for westerners to get confused by the sweet talk. Here is a very good book about how it is different than other types of Buddhism. People recognize that there are many kinds of hinduism, islam and even christianity. But,they can't understand the same about Buddhism. https://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Not-Smiling-Uncovering-Corruption/dp/0977225305
Tibetan Buddhist is too deep and complex to normal like us to understand. So many times western writers, scholars and philosophers have misinterpreted. Because they don’t understand the real and full contexts. Tibetan Buddhism has thousands of volumes of scrips.
First of all every religion promotes peace and there I always an effort to bring positivity in our life. secondly, people have their own mind to decide. They are interested in Tibetan Buddhism not merely of sweet talks, it because Tibetan Buddhism relates with everyday of your life. It promotes peace, humanity, happiness. And if you think people alike you are confused with the sweet talk, I would suggest you to go and study deeper and find an answer than just remaining confused as you are now. PS. Tibetan Buddhism is deeper than you would imagine, a book cannot portray you the real meaning. It takes an effort and time to study and know Tibetan Buddhism.
LMAO. If it truly is what you describe it to be, why were there so many serfs so cruelly punished for such petty 'offences' and treated worse than livestock that were all sanctioned by the monasteries? Do you actually know anything about actual traditional Tibetan Buddhism. Not the stuff that Dalai Lama has watered down so that it is more appealing to the morals of people today. But if you actually dig through the historical records and paintings, especially when it comes to certain ceremonies and rituals. It is pretty darn brutal and bloody.
And they do devil worshipping. Like literally, because according to some sects of Tibetan Buddhist beliefs, devils that have been brought in by the powers of Buddha can be a powerful tool. But their inherent blood-lusting nature cannot be tamed, so when you use them, the sacrifices are more... intense. Things like human organs, human blood, human fetuses/blood of certain heritages.
Let's not forget the human bone Buddhist artifacts and human skin drums that were super common before they were banned.
I read it was blended in with the Bon folk religion. Just look at their festivities, devils, ghouls, and you can tell. Pretty medieval. Also fatalism which comes with casteism which allows the theocracy to rule the masses. If they dont obey, they or their loved ones dont get reincarnated, etc.
Which Tibetologists?
Thank you for the article, Miss Esha. I was just speaking with my father about Tibet and wondering why the West is very insistent on pushing independence for Tibet. I found it nonsensical as me and my family visited the place a few years ago, with the tour guide (a local Tibetan man) telling us how things are better and much accessible than it was. Your article certainly made sense to certain things. I even went to Weibo to check on things, and found this article about the percentage of serf and very clear pictures of them as well. I thought you might be interested in it.
(Source: https://weibointl.api.weibo.cn/share/144829456.html?weibo_id=4487441274834223
https://weibointl.api.weibo.cn/share/144829521.html?weibo_id=4487462317004174)
First link basically explains that only less than 5% were serf owners while 95% were serfs for generations. Second link shows contrasts of 1950s vs current Tibet.
You might see many resistance against your piece, accusing you of spreading Chinese propaganda and yelling over any explanation you try to give. But know that there are people whose eyes you have opened, whose perspective you broadened today with this article.
Thank you for spreading the truth, or at the very least a less biased, rose tinted version of history.
Now is 21st century, not countries in the world remained out of electricity and mobile phones. Tibetans also deserves to have better living standards under China’s role. Just take a look back to 19th and 20th century and ask your dad about how the life style or living condition in your land/country. then you will have another picture. This article is all about how tibetan serfs suffered under the Feudal system.
Same systems were practiced even in the western countries during 1900s and 1920s. There was a time in the history, the every men and women have undergone in the same situation and same hardship that has highlighted in this article.
During the industrial revolution in Europe, do you know labors labors conditions and from where and how did these labors taken from? So you have to look at a larger picture and compare with other countries during and around same period.
You said that you went to Tibet recently. Have you given access to go and visit wherever you want go freely and openly? have you given right and chance to talk with very layman and common people about their situation? Have you given right travel freely without a travel agent and a tour guy? Would China allow you to visite the sites freely without a tour gay with you!! Think about these and then speak.
Leave China so you can actually be able to do some research :)
Lmfao, I'm from Singapore. So much for not making assumptions. Shut up already, CIA bot
I thought it was Ok to make assumptions? And i'm going to assume your an oversees Chinese person. You've been doing it the entire time. Ok I'll shut up, Chinese propaganda bot!
Deflecting when it's your mistake, West imperialist CIA bots can only use whataboutism in face of the truth
So all the deflections of your mistakes is not whataboutism?
mind blown... thank you!
I am glad you enjoyed it! Please share.
Read and enjoy! But don’t be a fool to believe everything that’s written here.
A few pages of article cannot narrate the whole history of a country (Tibet). It is one-sided story and 100% untrue.
If Tibetans are so happy and prosperous under Chinese’s rule then why my parents left Tibet, our own beautiful land, and take refuge in India?
If Tibetans are living so well-off under CCP even in today, then why my brothers and sisters in Tibet are self-immolating and praying His Holiness the 14 Dalai Lama to return to Tibet as one of their last wishes:
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/cities/shimla/154-self-immolations-in-tibet-since-2009-says-tibetan-govt-in-exile-6281835/lite/
There are many many questions I have which you cannot answer because you are restricting your research focusing on few topics and highlighting few lines in some books. It pained my heart reading your article, seeing you painted our long glories history and rich culture in just limited colours and presented to readers to enjoy and share it at large.
Well, 120k are in India. Lots of Chinese fled the wars, famines and also communism in China. I guess your ancestors have their reasons. Perhaps they are the high monks or the landlords or the elites with more to lose.
Immolations?
ask the DL. He never want to stop it, did he??? Maybe he likes the bright photos.
He said he shouldnt interfere, and let them burn.
fact is the stats are useful politically.
btw, India has more than a thousand immolations a YEAR. why?
> The practice continues, notably in India: as many as 1,451 and 1,584 self-immolations were reported there in 2000 and 2001, respectively.
So China bans immolations and punish those who abet. Yes, abet. Abetters are the real criminals, which may include the assholes close to the DL.
Guess what?? It works. it stops.
It's like AQ asking people to be suicide bombers with promise of 14 virgins. They are brainwashed and seduced to do it.
For what???? for politics, for the Dalai Lama. He asked for it.
Was life better or worse under serfdom? Pretty easy question to answer.
https://info-buddhism.com/Human-Rights-in-Tibet-before-1959_Robert_Barnett.html
Fascinating!! Many thanks!
Read and enjoy! But don’t be a fool to believe everything that’s written here.
A few pages of article cannot narrate the whole history of a country (Tibet). It is one-sided story and 100% untrue.
If Tibetans are so happy and prosperous under Chinese’s rule then why my parents left Tibet, our own beautiful land, and take refuge in India?
If Tibetans are living so well-off under CCP even in today, then why my brothers and sisters in Tibet are self-immolating and praying His Holiness the 14 Dalai Lama to return to Tibet as one of their last wishes:
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/cities/shimla/154-self-immolations-in-tibet-since-2009-says-tibetan-govt-in-exile-6281835/lite/
There are many many questions I have which you cannot answer because you are restricting your research focusing on few topics and highlighting few lines in some books. It pained my heart reading your article, seeing you painted our long glories history and rich culture in just limited colours and presented to readers to enjoy and share it at large.
Well, many Muslims blow themselves up for a political or religious cause t00. They are used or brainwashed or conditioned or feel so strongly about it. sad but i cannot explain. there are always a few like that in all societies.
D lama could stop it. BUT he refused. Maybe he knows he cannot? maybe he thinks it is good PR? I dont know. But it's shit that many exploit the immolations for politics.
becoz, the original religion r much more cruel, it was used to harness, when master is gone, they feel no meanings of living, modern religions involves and become more benign to make it coexist with mundane society.
Interesting read. Is there a source for the picture of the shackled serf in the stairs? Couldn't find a clear one via Google Image search
Yes. There isn't a clear one since it was taken in the 1930s 🤣
Try searching 农奴 on Weibo! It's china's most popular social media, a bit like mix of Twitter and Facebook but runs better if you get a hang of it
Can you post something about democracy and freedoms to this website?
I found very clear ones from Weibo, a Chinese social media. If you search with 农奴 as keyword you can find several
Glad you can make your 5 cents!
I will gladly work for free to shut imperialist like you up
Too bad you haven't shut me up though....
This entire article and it’s references are strongly biased and one-sided. If you have no self respect, human values and ethics within yourself as well as to others then you can create false stores with every old pictures and clips you got. I know the Man in the video who praises China’s occupation of Tibet, because this is solely for his occupation. Standing for China is his Bread & Butter. You know what I saying? If one is rightful and give himself or herself freedom to explore and decide then, he or she will surely spit to China’s illegal occupation of Tibet.
Not true. The DL knows the sentiments in Tibet. He knows the majority have benefited from CHina, and therefore the % asking for independence is low. HE had said sometime in 2014 / 2017 that Tibet no longer wants independence but only more development, and their culture to be respected. Hey, all festivities still on, Tibetan taught in school, 1700 temples and China didnt ban SKY BURIALs. I guess good enough.
Tibet is quite rich today relative to all surrounding countries. for sure they are far better off than their cousins in exile.
This is total propaganda trash, intended to justify the Chinese ongoing genocide of the Tibetans! Sad to see it paraded here still, after 70 years!
Look at my sources: The Dalai Lama, New York Times and the CIA internal documents.
Are you saying the CIA was brainwashed by Chinese propaganda?
Goldstein writes in his second volume of A History of Modern Tibet “No one in Washington or at the CIA headquarters in Langley knew much of anything about Tibet, Ganzi/Kham, or JKTS” (pg 393).
Cool, you can cherry pick information and you also used: china.org.cn
It is called corroboration. If a Chinese source and the CIA say the same thing, it is highly likely that piece of information is true. Especially since the CIA is anti-china. There is no reason for the CIA to lie to make China look better, especially from the documents from the 1950s.
I made sure that all the information was corroborated in two ways.
What did the CIA know about Tibet? Where did they get their information? Oh from Chinese sources?
Are you really implying the CIA was incompetent enough to not be able to get anything on Tibet while they could spy on all world leaders?
I didn't say incompetent. All I asked was how much did they know? Was Tibet on their radar at the time? I think you underestimate how closed Tibet was.... I would love to see information on the CIA being able to spy on all the world leaders of the time.
Lol yeah the CIA was China's puppet just like the VOA.
Amazing, are you saying the US and CIA knows so little of their enemies????
Dont the CIA and D Lama have a few spies in Tibet LOL. Maybe they have given up stirring shit there as it's pointless.
Cool, you can cherry pick only western positive information! Congratulations! Give this ignorant man an applause!
What did I cherry pick from western information? I know you won't be able to answer this :(
That China is invading Tibet? Everything from CIA is wrong when it proved China has the right to handle Tibet? That you immediately decided the information is wrong because it's from a Chinese site instead?
So China did not have to send its military into Tibet?
I never said the information is wrong, did I? I said what did they know about TIbet. It's also funny that you discredit western sources, except for the CIA... The CIA never even said that China has a right to "handle" Tibet, so now you making more things up (Like the typical Chinese government).
So it's okay for the "benevolent" ruling monks to have slaves, store weapons in their palatial temples, collude with foreign forces to break an agreement with Chinese government and kill their soldiers and peasants because their slaves were slowly getting smarter and richer? If Ireland were to do the same, would UK just let the leaders of the rebels flee? I believe you are the one drowned in western propaganda instead
My documents are almost exclusively from the CIA. Unless this man thinks the CIA internal documents are chinese propaganda...
I think this man will never accept anything positive said about China, or the legitimate explanation China had in doing what they did. He even missed the part about the USA weaponising the rebel monks in your article
me too, it is the power of faith, though a stupid and evil faith.
Why not use historians who study Tibet for a living?
I did. I read about 50 different articles and books. Here is everything I read.
https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=kZRsDlkZjIMFa4Bb315imlDT6GVAyhSTvTpk
I don't agree with this Phil Lim guy but he had a point. You need to cite as many sources as possible especially when writing on contentious issues like this.
*as footnotes or sidenotes
And where is it cited in your article?
Phil is a cuckold
Cry more
I love seeing libtards like you cry
How much did the CIA know about Tibet at the time?
Well, enough because they were ARMING THEM, training and dropping off weapons at the time!
So arming and training people is enough to know their culture and everything that is happening in a country?
it's disgusting.
you mean even CIA is lying if their finding supported China
Just quite a snake this Phil guy, twisting and turning.
They are an intelligence body from the USA. They generally need to know everything that is going on or their country would be spied and state secret be leaked, y'know
Yes, and what did they know at the time? Was Tibet a focus?
The CIA also said Iraq had WMD's, y'know
Click on the entire documents that I put. I have about 20+ years of documents. Read through each of them and see for yourself. Also, the CIA internally knew Iraq didn't have WMDS. https://twitter.com/historic_ly/status/1181348607712206848?s=20
funny, now you are saying CIA cannot be trusted and stupid. They were in Tibet, planned the DL escape, armed insurgents, paid the DL and his entourage to play anti-China, paid lots to write naughty things, funded the Free Tibet orgs & NGOS, etc, etc, and they dont know???
Well, maybe Esha knows more.
No one said it was alright to have slaves. What were neighboring countries like at the time? What percent of Tibetans were slaves? The Chinese were the invaders...the monks have a right to defend their country against the foreign invaders.
Oh, and to answer your question: Only 5% of the Tibetan population were serf owners so 95% of Tibet population were serfs aka slaves. Congrats! You are defending the Freedom of elites to shackle and objectify human beings, but it's okay if it's against those dastardly communist China! The poor slave labors can be free to be worked to death and amputated, woohoo!
Serfs aren't slaves. Congrats! You're trying to talk about something you don't know.
So you're saying it's okay to amputate and work the common population to death in perpetual poverty for generations because the elite monks said it's their Buddha given right? That's not the definition of slaves? You do notice the shackles on their necks and feet, right?
he mean serfs are acceptable to him, haha
I'm not saying that. Also how common or widspread was that practice? What was China like at the time? What were other neighboring countries like?
Why don't you answer those questions first and then come back to me so I can educate you.
Yes, they can. If they get into serious debts, they go into bondage. The powerful in Tibet certainly exploit the gullible fatalistic society.
After liberation, a notable event was the burning of bondage papers in big bonfires. Whatever, the old system in Tibet was bad, as was the case in many backwards places.
Geopolitically, is a diff matter and already a closed chapter. Legally China claimed back a breakaway Tibet by force. To some it's an invasion of a sovereign nation (but Tibet was FAR from sovereign). The UN and all the powers have already accepted Tibet belongs to China long ago. However US or India bitch for their own selfish reasons, there is still the reality that no one can take away Tibet.
Serfs are shit enough. Have you been a serf before? that's 90% of the people. omg. you are protecting 5%?
The ruling class of Tibet was literally colluding with British and Americans to attack PLA. Which sane country would let a region, especially an autonomous region bordering with at least three different countries, freely stockpiling arms from those who had intentions of conquest be?
Are you seriously saying China had no right to defend itself from an obvious foreign intervention and civil war because some rich monks decided their peasants were living too well? Would you tell UK to please liberate Ireland and Scotland if China were to airdrop guns and bombs for them to attack British soldiers? Petition USA to set Hawaii free were Russia to arm Hawaiians with missiles? Why not ask Japan to let Okinawa go if Iraq were to provide the weapons?
"The ruling class of Tibet was literally colluding with British and Americans to attack PLA."
When? And what are you talking about? Are you talking about after China invaded?
"Which sane country would let a region, especially an autonomous region bordering with at least three different countries, freely stockpiling arms from those who had intentions of conquest be?"
So it's justified to invade a country to protect itself from three other countries? When did Tibet want to conquer China?
"Are you seriously saying China had no right to defend itself from an obvious foreign intervention and civil war because some rich monks decided their peasants were living too well?"
The only foreign intervention in Tibet was China.... China wasn't defending anything, it was the aggressor. After China invaded an independent country, the U.S. did supply Tibetans with arms/training (It was just to collect intelligence and had no serious plans of liberating Tibet), as the Tibetans were fighting against an inavader... There is no sympathy for foreign invaders.
I also love how you didn't answer any of my questions ;)
I don't think you have read the article at all. Did the part where USA airdropped weaponry for the monks got lost from your sight or you are just deliberately being illiterate? At this point it is useless to explain and provide anything to you because everything that doesn't line with your reality is propaganda. I think you yourself know what is the truth, but since it destroys the beautiful West is Best narrative it is unacceptable
You can't even spell invader right because China was not invading their own country. British and USA were when they decided it was okay to arm those rich monks
In case you miss it, only 5% of the Tibetan population were serf owners. 95% of the population were serfs. The poor, poor monks without Freedom to have slave labor and amputating whoever they want. CCP didn't even ask them to stop having serfs but sure they were invading
Source: https://weibointl.api.weibo.cn/share/144821806.html?weibo_id=4487441274834223
Translation:
On this day, The Tibetan serfs emancipated! Serf owners could set up private jails, the serfs were called "burdensome talking beast". Before 1959, Tibet had long been a society of feudal serfdom under theocracy, with less than 5% of the population being serf owners occupying all available pastures and more than 95% of population were serfs for generations. Today (3/28) in 1959, the central government announced the dissolution of local Tibetan government, serfs become masters of their own and Tibet!
Maybe you should write more clearly. Did you not read when I wrote about the U.S. helping the Tibetan fighters?
You're absolutely right, I spelt invader wrong so therfore I am not correct in any way. It was perfectly fine to supply Tibetans with training and arms. In fact they should have provided more as China was the invader.
HAHAHAHA! Using weibo as a source. You are a joke and I can't take you seriously.
we are not foreigners, it has been under central government since kublei khan. britain tried to steal it when qing dynasty was weak.
Which genocide? The ones Chinese government provided with free housing, electricity, jobs, and free education? You think Tibetans are some backwards society asking for the White Heroes to please save them from prosperity and higher living standard? The Tibetans have enough money to live comfortably and access Internet. I just literally saw Tibetans posting happy pictures on Weibo, but I bet you will say those are doctored because in your mind Tibetans are poor, uncivilized people asking to be liberated.
Its now 21st century, do you think that Tibetan can’t access to electricity, internet with China? And do you think Tibetan are still having 19th century’s life style? Tibetans are same people as Chinese, as westerners who can have ability and capability to build own necessary infrastructure without China. Who do you think China is? Tibetan are living in their own land. China didn’t bring all of sudden these long rivers, high mountains and deep forest and wildlife’s in Tibet to make Tibet more greater. Out of China, Tibet already lived thousands of year happily just like how these western countries lived. And Tibet has everything to live as Prosperous as all other counties.
What a non sense!! I know that Smiling faces are another beauties of Tibetans. So how silly you are to get surprised with how Tibetan are smiling in their social media posts. What else funny complains you want to make over Tibetan rather other than on smiling faces?
genocide in america, in asia, australia, africa
Maybe you should go to Tibet and speak to them....
you, i would like you make a protest at the custom
Genocide???? that's BS.
Nope, pop was 1 million, now it's more than 2 million Tibetans and close to 4 m all over CHina.
Tibet is open for tourism. Go see. It's pretty nice. Tibetans have big houses, lands, bikes, SUVs. Development is amazing, univ , hospitals, schools, tourism, agriculture. People who have visited have blogged their experience.
You even see Tibetans happy in Tiktok.
There's also glarring mistakes and opinions not backed up within it.
Which ones? Please explain beyond This Is Propaganda just because it doesn't line up with your Freedom is Good belief
I have read, can't remember where, that Tibet was an expansionist warrior state during an early warming period (Roman?). In particular, Tibetan warriors accoutered much like armored cavalry, ranged far afield to rule over an area much larger than the mountains which comprise Tibet today.
As always, history is written by the victors for their own benefit.
Old Tibet was quite militaristic and fought numerous wars. In some maps, you would find they control quite a huge territory and at times even threaten the Chinese states in the far west.
That was the 7th~9th centuries, during which they even sacked the then Tang capital of Xi'an. Interestingly enough no ethnic Han people are blaming them but rather direct they hatred towards prince Suzong, who promised the Tibetans to do so as long as they helped quelling the rebels.
She reads some newspaper ad magazines and starts to describe the history of Tibet it this kind of a joke millions of people were killed by Chinese it is crystal clear in the history and if you want more proof in the modern world then what about the uighurs concentration camps why people of Uighur cannot have their basic fundamental rights why are CCP interfering someone else rights why are they always down to harm others there is a saying in Tibet « If you cannot help others atleast don’t harm them » and it is as simple as that I will be happy and proud if I could change ones perspective before girl like you starts to destroy
U idiot think before you write baseless accusations maybe none of your family is under CCP or else you would know what does suffer means people like you are sold bloody damn disgrace in the name of humanity Chinese have ruined millions life’s of people and you are one of them
You have talked a lot about the serfs and corvee labors as if it only happened in Tibet and have never happened to any part of the world. If we take a look back to most recent last two centuries, serfs were even more common to the entire western world. Even today you can see how China is forcing Xing-Jiang Muslims and Tibetans to the labor camps. Why CCP China is not giving free access to these news medias to cover the news and informations about these forceful labor camps. What you can say about this? Aren’t you taking aback in seeing these thing in 21st century? You still want to mute and fool yourself as if you you never knew or heard of it.
How can you justify that Tibet was not an independent country before 1959? Is this particular article a worthwhile enough to publish to show how Tibet was a part of China?