I lived and worked in communist-socialist China for 16 years, where I witnessed REAL people's democracy on a daily basis. It is very inclusive and consensual. If a plurality of the people are against a proposed law, it gets tabled until the citizens' concerns are addressed.
The three leading democracies–Switzerland, China, and Singapore–are all non-Athenian and each has a unique way of implementing the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Switzerland uses expensive, time-consuming direct democracy.
China employs its 3000-person Congress to scrutinize all official appointments and legislation and requires support from two-thirds of them to approve all actions.
Singapore's model blends Confucian officialdom and British Parliamentarianism.
One possible conclusion we might make from these three successes is that our Athenian/Roman model is the worst of all possible worlds!
I read an interesting thread on switzerland about how that make a ton of money off of selling parts for military stuff like tanks planes etc. its supposedly the backbone of their economy
The Swiss system is proactive: they hold four elections/referenda every year and invest great energy in their participative system. The downside is that a 37-year-old from Zurich who turned 18 in year 2000 has, in past 20 years, had the opportunity to take part in 548 referenda, 181 of them being on the federal, 176 on the cantonal and 191 on the municipal level. With the average turnout of 45% it means that they have voted in approximately 246 referenda.
This would be unworkable in China, so they use consensual long-term goals–like the complete elimination of poverty, which draws 95% popular support–and constant polling to generate consistently democratic outcomes.
You are certainly right in thinking that "democracy" has been often misunderstood/misused. However, it is not obvious that the examples you have introduced actually illustrate cases where the will of the proletariat specifically has been over ruled. They seem to be cases where the will of voters of whatever class were over ruled. Your general point is correct: they are cases where democracy has been subverted.
Majority of the voters are proletariat. Also, I think things have changed between Marx time and now. For example, Corporations have gotten personhood, all sorts of treaties in the wto framework.
Perhaps the more important distinction is "human person" vs "corporation"
I lived and worked in communist-socialist China for 16 years, where I witnessed REAL people's democracy on a daily basis. It is very inclusive and consensual. If a plurality of the people are against a proposed law, it gets tabled until the citizens' concerns are addressed.
I have written much about Chinese democracy,
https://chinarising.puntopress.com/search/?q=democracy
Socialist countries have true democracy. Capitalist countries have Kabuki democracy that only serves the interests of the 1% oligarchs.
Very interesting. I will read it and check it out.
The three leading democracies–Switzerland, China, and Singapore–are all non-Athenian and each has a unique way of implementing the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Switzerland uses expensive, time-consuming direct democracy.
China employs its 3000-person Congress to scrutinize all official appointments and legislation and requires support from two-thirds of them to approve all actions.
Singapore's model blends Confucian officialdom and British Parliamentarianism.
One possible conclusion we might make from these three successes is that our Athenian/Roman model is the worst of all possible worlds!
I read an interesting thread on switzerland about how that make a ton of money off of selling parts for military stuff like tanks planes etc. its supposedly the backbone of their economy
Interesting. I wonder if there is a book that calls about all the models of" Democracy"
Switzerland's cantons are very interesting and I should have an episode on that.
There are two wonderful articles, The Swiss Political System: More than You ever Wanted to Know: https://250bpm.com/blog:161/
And I've analyzed the Chinese system: Selling Democracy to China: https://www.unz.com/article/selling-democracy-to-china/
The Swiss system is proactive: they hold four elections/referenda every year and invest great energy in their participative system. The downside is that a 37-year-old from Zurich who turned 18 in year 2000 has, in past 20 years, had the opportunity to take part in 548 referenda, 181 of them being on the federal, 176 on the cantonal and 191 on the municipal level. With the average turnout of 45% it means that they have voted in approximately 246 referenda.
This would be unworkable in China, so they use consensual long-term goals–like the complete elimination of poverty, which draws 95% popular support–and constant polling to generate consistently democratic outcomes.
Both in China and Russia, I've seen them put out 5-year plan of what the government hopes to achieve in the next 5 years.
In the USA, the government doesn't feel obligated to achieve anything for us, so we don't get these 5-year plans.
But, I think it's a good idea to have "markers" to judge them by.
You are certainly right in thinking that "democracy" has been often misunderstood/misused. However, it is not obvious that the examples you have introduced actually illustrate cases where the will of the proletariat specifically has been over ruled. They seem to be cases where the will of voters of whatever class were over ruled. Your general point is correct: they are cases where democracy has been subverted.
Majority of the voters are proletariat. Also, I think things have changed between Marx time and now. For example, Corporations have gotten personhood, all sorts of treaties in the wto framework.
Perhaps the more important distinction is "human person" vs "corporation"
Good read, Esha!